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Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:34:39 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Anne Carlson <ACdrift@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast
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Hi All,

I thought I'd try again and jump into one of these fanfic discussions.  I
certainly enjoyed Phil Atcliffe's "Montrose's Toast" when he posted it here
awhile back.  I wanted to ask if Phil had scanned (or could) that picture
from
issue #2 of "Starslayer" that is the focus of his story.  I wanted to see it
right after I finished reading "Montrose's Toast" some time ago - but
haven't
had a chance to look for it.

This thought about the picture was brought to mind again when Sandy wrote a
comment concerning Clark's behavior:

<<Beyond writing technique, the characterizations were very good.  I was a
little taken aback at times by Clark, however, and I wondered if that had
anything to do with the male point of view as opposed to the typical female
view I am used to reading.  For instance, I was especially surprised by
Clark's behavior when he takes Lois off to a secluded location after he
tells her the big secret.  Once there, in a fit of emotion amidst their
intense conversation, the following occurs:

[snip scene from "Montrose's Toast" where Clark displays Lois to the world]

Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
character<g>.  To hold Lois up, like a trophy?  Hmm.>>

Phil wrote in his forward about the unbelievable picture he saw in a comic
book:

<<Actually, I blame Mike Grell (one of my favourite comics
artists). There's a panel in issue #2 of "Starslayer" showing the
Celtic hero, Torin MacQuillon, holding his wife Gwynereth in the
air -- when I first saw it, I wasn't at all sure that a human,
hero or not, could actually *do* that (you have to see the
drawing to understand -- it looks quite beautiful, but it would
be incredibly difficult to hold a woman that way); and when I
came across the comic while I was writing this story, I couldn't
get the image of Clark holding Lois like that (now, *he* could do
it!) out of my head, and that led to the "dance" on the beach...
and most of the rest of the story flowed from that. Strange are
the mental processes of writers...>>

I know how many people have written about how favorite songs remind them of
L&C.  This seems to be the same thing.  I would like to see this picture.
Can
anyone help me find it?

Thanks,
Anne (ACdrift@aol.com)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:38:13 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      WARNING: A non-L&C, Longish Post on Female Comedy Writing
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I know the following has nothing to do with L&C, but it's somewhat humorous
and may be of interest to a group of (mostly) women writers.   Besides,
Peace encouraged me.  Oh....  One other thing, since I did not write this
essay, no one should feel the need to rebut *me*.  (That should save some
keystrokes.)

BROAD COMEDY  by Jenny Bicks

     Somewhere out there in the universe is a very funny woman named Kerry
O'Brien.  Actually, I'm assuming she's still funny.  The last time I saw
her we were three and best friends at All Souls nursery school.  My report
cards attest to our joint comedy prowess:  we appear to have spent most of
our time rolling around on the floor cracking each other up.  Or putting on
"movie shows" where we would make the rest of the class sit quietly in neat
rows and watch as we performed our shtick in the block corner (trying out
the show in the sticks, as it were).
     At four we split up the act and I went solo to an all-girls school.
There, with a drama department devoid of boys, I was able to sink my teeth
into the choicest comedy roles, and on a real stage no less.  My
gravedigger in "Hamlet" was rivaled only by my bad drunk in a bad fedora in
"Ten Little Indians".  We were such smart girls.  But we were so naive:  no
one ever bothered to tell us women weren't meant to be funny.
     Not surprisingly, ten years later I found myself on a shrink's couch
uttering these fateful words:  "If I could just be a comedy writer I'd be
so happy."  I am now a Hollywood sitcom writer.  Studios, on an alarmingly
regular basis, pay me to be funny.  I'm pretty sure they know I'm a woman.
And I wouldn't necessarily say I'm happy.  Call me bemused.
     My first hint that I wasn't in comedy Kansas anymore came when my
agent phoned me to tell me about my first break.  "Mango Man," (all sitcom
titles have been changed to protect the innocent and the guilty) she said,
"is very interested in you.  You're the best woman they've read."  "The
best woman?" I asked.   "Sure," she said, exasperated.  "They had to hire a
woman.  You're the best.  (Pause)  What.  You're not happy."  "No," I
explain in my best girls'-school logic.  "I'm not a funny woman.  I'm just
funny.  Period."  "Welcome to Hollywood," said my agent.  "Go to the gym.
We'll do lunch tomorrow and talk."
     What I learned that day has stuck with me.  The female writer quota,
like male waxing, is a lot more prevalent in Hollywood than you'd care to
know.  What's fascinating is that while sitcoms will fight over a handful
of women writers, once hired they rarely know what to do with us. We're
like that goldfish you diligently tossed rings to win at the school fair:
once you got it home you realized you have nothing to put it in and you
have no idea what it eats.
     There is an unwritten understanding in sitcoms.  Women are very good
at coming up with stories and writing "treacle scenes" (that ubiquitous
part of any bad sitcom, usually act 2, scene 3, when someone says "I think
we need to talk.")  They are also good to have around to answer general
questions about the female anatomy and to field fashion questions.  ("No,
Amanda can't wear linen in that dinner scene.  It's December.")  What
women, in general, are not hired for is the real stuff of comedy:  jokes.
     For the most part, writer's rooms are still the denizens of young male
writers practicing what I call the Stooges Principle:  if you like the
Three Stooges, you're funny and can bring in your toys and play.  If you
don't, you're probably a girl and have cooties.  Since appreciation of the
Three Stooges does, I'm scared to admit, alarmingly often divide [sic] down
gender lines, this rule has been quite effective at keeping most women at
[sic] the comedy water cooler.  (By the way:  note how many times a Three
Stooges joke makes it into your favorite sitcom. They're stealthy.)
     Recently I had a (male) boss tell me, point blank, that women aren't
funny.  When I pointed out to him that he hired me to be funny and, last
time I checked, I was a woman, he thought for a moment and then answered
with boss-like aplomb:  "Yeah, but you're not a woman."  With that he
turned on his heels and exited, off to make his next executive decision.
On more than one occasion I have had the following "compliment" from a
fellow male writer:  "You're good.  You write like a guy."  What they mean
is:  I'm confused.  You're actually funny and you have breasts.
     Male writers aren't the only ones I'm confusing.  While comedy has
done wonders for my check book, it has been hell on my dance card.  As my
friend Karen likes to point out, being a woman in this business is like
playing the children's game "Careers."  You get sixty points and you get to
decide between a family and career.  Unfortunately, the guys still get
both.
     I have a friend here in L.A.  He is neurotic.  He is losing his hair.
He wears bad clothes.  He is a classic nebbish.  He is also a TV Producer.
And women flock to him like swallows to Capistrano.  On any given day he is
entertaining another would-be model, or struggling actress.  His position
and paycheck shriek "big break" to this [sic] girls.  In Hollywood, a guy's
producing credit on "Seinfeld" is better than any Spanish Fly.
     Now when you're a female comedy writer, it doesn't exactly work the
same way.  Here's the scenario.  You enter a bar.  You think you look
pretty good.  A man with a goatee approaches you.  (In Hollywood, a goatee
is a necessity.  Like milk or toilet paper.)  You trade meaningful glances.
He approaches.  You flirt madly.  He asks what you do.  Women writers have
learned to answer this question as if discussing the very ill:  "I write
(hushed whisper) comedy."
     There is a long pause. During this pause he is thinking the following:
"She's probably gay.  She's too smart.  She won't laugh at my jokes.  Oh
God, she probably makes more money than me.  Hey, maybe she has another gay
friend and the three of us could....  Whoa, is that Michelle Pfeiffer?"  He
exits quickly to the opposite end of the bar. Really.  This happens.
     Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the men of Tinseltown.  There are
plenty of women happy to uphold the stereotype.  Why, right now there are
two very successful comediennes with hit shows who are very vocal about not
wanting women writers on their staffs.  Both have been victims of bad men
throughout their lives.  One speaks out against domestic violence.
Ironically, while society has come to uncomfortable terms with the image of
women being punched, women doing the punch lines still scare them.
     Conversely, not all men are scared of funny women.  God bless them.
In fact, my first benefactor was a man of some stature.  It was Robert
Lowell, the famous poet.  I was five.  He was judging a smart writing
contest I entered with a touching poem in verse about a crab with a weight
problem.  He found my piece joyous and effervescent and funny.  And better
than the boys.  I won.  But then again, he was clinically crazy at the time
and I had a pageboy haircut so it probably doesn't count.
     I have a recurring dream.  Kerry O'Brien and I are running a show.  I
enter the writer's room and it is full of bright, funny women.  (Okay, and
some enlightened men.)  We don't spend hours writing jokes about PMS.  We
don't talk endlessly about our sexual conquests.  We write brilliant, witty
repartee for a brilliant, witty sitcom that wins many brilliant, shiny
awards.  Then we go home to our husbands who have spent all day polishing
our Emmys.  And we make them laugh till they cry.
                                  ******

>From "Creme de la Femme:  The Best of Contemporary Women's Humor,"
(copyright 1997).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:26:44 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Survival Guide to Electronic Fanfic"
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In a message dated 98-06-10 11:24:10 EDT, you write:

<< Everyone else -- go read this!  This FAQ is an excellent "how-to" guide
 on writing, posting, and reading fanfic.  I highly recommend it.  :) >>

I agree.  When Rhen ran the old list, there was a guide sent out to those
who
newly joined on how to best format a story so that it wouldn't spam all over
the place with weird line breaks and strange symbols appearing in the text.

It's funny too how universal some story themes are (the FAQ cautioned
against
writing fic involving the real actors).  Since Star Trek and the old old
days
of fanfic, there have been stories where the real actors find themselves
somehow transposed with the characters they portray.  I've seen it in
X-Files
fanfic as well. Time travel stories and alternate dimension stories are also
common, though with L&C, of course, it's part of the show's canon, but
doesn't
suit other fanfic very well where that isn't the case.  Oh, and 'Mary Sue'
fanfic where a writer puts himself/herself or other 'fans' in the story.
Anyway, the FAQ is an excellent guide:  http://BUCKAROO-BONSAI-
TREE.MIT.EDU/Interrim/margaret.htm

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:58:31 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Three New Round Robins :)
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In a message dated 98-06-15 05:53:42 EDT, you write:

<< Thank you, IRC writers & editors, for all your hard work! :-) >>

I wanted to thank *you*, Pam for the thanks.  I think the main reason round
robin exists at all, beyond liking writing with other writers, is that it's
a
lot like live theater<g>  However it's also like improv theater because you
have to make it up as you go along.  Most of us who write round robins know
there are people who don't like that genre.  As a writing genre round robins
can't hope to have either the cohesiveness or time necessary to be quite as
clear as a fanfic written by a single author who might take weeks compared
to
hours to write a story, but the one neat thing is, even if no one reads it
after it's posted to the fanfic list, we at least had an audience already on
the IRC<g>  So I also wanted to thank you just for taking the time to read
what we wrote and took the time to comment.

>>>I'll read Jury Duty soon, and may even comment on it <g>  <<

I have only one thing to say on this story, 'be kind'<g>  Seriously, the
title
'Jury Duty' became prophetic since so many writers ducked out on the
story<g>
A couple of writers from Germany dropped out because they didn't feel
familiar
enough with the American jury system, and then the only lawyer we had on the
channel (hi, Eileen ;) had to leave.  That just left me and Chris Paterson,
and so the story ended up a lot shorter than planned and with something of a
quick, almost hasty conclusion<g> There's also a few fanfics that never have
and likely never will see the light of day on the fanfic list because they
didn't gel, but the pleasure of writing them with other writers, and just
the
fun of it, can't be taken away.

thanks again,

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:32:46 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
In-Reply-To:  <1eac216a.35845921@aol.com>
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At 07:13 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Jury Duty continued from part 1

Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?

Have any of the writers actually been on jury duty?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:57:48 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Chris P <CP13607@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
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In a message dated 06/16/98 1:32:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
 Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?

 Have any of the writers actually been on jury duty?
  >>
I had just finished a stint on jury duty when this idea came up, so a lot of
what we wrote is very true to life...the boredom, etc.  No, jurors do not
get
conjugal visits if they are sequestered. They can't even read newspapers or
watch the news unless anything relating to the trial has been cut out.
What's
even harder, you can't discuss the case with anyone, even fellow jurors
unless
you are actually in the room set aside for deliberations. I can see being a
juror driving Lois right up the wall, let alone being separated from her
hubby. <g>

Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:10:48 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
In-Reply-To:  <de823961.3585d11d@aol.com>
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At 09:57 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 06/16/98 1:32:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
>gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:
>
><< Why does Clark have to sneak in to Lois' hotel,
> Don't sequestered jurors get conjugal visits?
>
> No, jurors do not get
>conjugal visits if they are sequestered.
>

Which state are you referring to?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
|  "You decide what you feel heaven is worth" - Deborah Gibson, TWYH  |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:14:56 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Chris P <CP13607@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: NEW FANFIC: JURY DUTY: Part 2 of 2
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In a message dated 06/16/98 2:10:28 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU writes:

<< Which state are you referring to?
  >>

I'm in California.

Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:08:29 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         No Name Available <DarlaW@AOL.COM>
Subject:      unsubscribe/subscribe
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Sorry I seem to have lost my notes on subscribing & unsubscribing to this
list.  Can someone email me privately with the directions?

Thanks much....my email is getting to big to handle with one account! <g>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:30:12 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Email change for KathyB and [Re: Female Comedy Writing]
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Just to let everyone know, my email address has changed.  Effective
immediately,
you can reach me at:

<kbrown@webmart.net>

Yes, I am still sending this from my Toolcity address.  The account is paid
through the
end of June, and while I've switched over all of my other mailing lists,
discussion lists, personal email, etc., to Webmart, the Fanfic List is still
pending.  (Hello Farah!  Are you out there??  Approve me already!  <g>)

While I'm here, though, I'll thank Sandy for scanning/typing the article on
Female Comedy Writers.  It was a very interesting read

Kathy

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:18:24 -0400
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 1
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> I was a little taken aback at times by Clark, however, and I wondered if
that had anything to
do with the male point of view as opposed to the typical female view I am
used to reading. <

>>>Quite likely. For example, a common plot twist in a lot of fanfic (and I
_think_ it's pretty much exclusive to female-written stuff) goes like this:
Clark tells Lois the big secret, she hits the roof, and he just stands
there and takes it, unable to defend or justify himself while she rampages
about and then stomps off in a furious huff. While it can be argued that
this is in character, or could be, it's not the only possible response, and
the continual repetition got on my nerves<<<

It's been such a long time since I've read "revelation" stories, that I
honestly can't remember how most writers have handled it.  I'm sure you're
right, however.  And, I have no problem with Clark emoting or defending
himself.  (As a matter of fact, he did this in WHALTTA, and I definitely
would have him do so if I had written such a story.)

That being said ...

*********
> For instance, I was especially surprised by Clark's behavior when he
takes Lois off to a secluded location after he tells her the big secret.
Once there, in a fit of emotion amidst their intense conversation, the
following occurs:

[Snip aerial pas de deux description]

Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
character<g>. To hold Lois up, like a trophy? Hmm. <

>>>_Not_ a trophy. A prize, perhaps, but not one that he's earned or been
given -- yet. Something (well, someone) of unequalled value that he wants
to show to the universe, so that it knows just whom he's talking about.
Like he said, _This_ is the one!<<<

**********

this move of Clark's seemed a bit neanderthal to me.  I'm surprised Lois
said nothing in the midst of it, like "Uh, Clark.... Um, what are you
doing, Clark?  Uh ... Remember you love me.  Don't do anything silly, like
toss me into the sun or into orbit or into a trash dumpster...."  <BG>

>>>This is Clark venting again....  he's probably rather surprised at what
comes out, but out it must come.<<<

I'll give you that.  Love certainly makes people do strange things.

> Another interesting, but funny, difference I noted (and this is just an
observation) was the complete absence of any description of what Lois was
wearing.<g> In comparison, Clark's wardrobe is described in detail. For
instance, on their first date, as in Lucky Leon, Lois leaves work early to
get ready and Clark declares her "lovely". That's all we know -- which is
fine. As for
Clark... [Snip Clark's black-on-black outfit]

>>>Partly this is another male thing....  And, to be honest, I didn't think
it was relevant. Lois can look gorgeous when she wants to (e.g., the end of
SG <howls>), so saying that was enough; I only described Clark's clothes to
make the point that he was all in black. This is a camouflage thing -- if
he's going to be doing super-stuff out of the suit, then he won't want to
be seen....

FWIW, there's a quite short description of Lois "dressing to kill" in
another of my stories, namely "Much Ado About..." Maybe that'll satisfy the
clothes hounds..?<<<

The point I was making was very tongue-in-cheek.  I'll put it plainly.  I
don't give one iota whether a writer describes what the characters wear --
unless it is absolutely necessary to the scene, e.g., nfic comes to
mind.<g>  However, I noticed that you never described Lois' clothes, in
this story, while going into great detail regarding Clark and I took off
with it,  (the point, not the clothes) *not* to voice my disappointment but
to rib some of my fellow writers who *must* describe Lois' outfit even when
it's totally unnecessary. ; )

>1) Lois' winning bid on Clark was $20,000. How would she be able to "throw
away" this kind of money? <

>>>I have to pass the buck on this one. The 20-grand figure comes from the
original story (to which MT is a sequel) "Sold!", by Erin Dawn McInnis, and
I had to work from that. It bugged me, too,<<<

Ah, I forgot Erin's story....  In any case, I kept waiting for Clark to
volunteer to help Lois pay for him.

>Self-confident? I certainly would not call Mayson that, at least in terms
of her personal life. To the contrary, she seemed very needy, which calls
to mind other personality quirks that I can identify with<g>.

>>>Depends on what you consider to be confidence, and how that confidence
is expressed. It seems to me that Mayson's forthright approach to Clark
indicates that she had enough self-confidence to make a grab for what she
wanted.<<<

I would with you if our only exposure to Mayson had been CoM.  (Actually, I
think I would argue that in CoM, Mayson was in danger of being on the wrong
side of professionalism.  If she were a man, Clark could have charged her
with sexual harrassment.)  Anyway, in subsequent episodes, she continues to
pursue Clark despite his lack of encouragement.  Granted, he was very
namby-pamby about turning her down which does give her reason to hope.
But, we are never given evidence that he ever pursued her, went out of his
way to be with her, or showed more than an embarrassing unwillingness to
say no.  She should have taken the hint.  The fact that she didn't is not
the mark of self-confidence as much as desperate clinging.

>>This is in stark contrast to Lois, who, as self-confident as she is
professionally, was very tentative in trying for a relationship with
_anyone_ (especially Clark). In my ignorance, the two women seem to be
about equal in that respect; it's just how their different personalities
affect their relationships with Clark.<<

I think you've stumbled on to an interesting comparison:  that between the
Lois/Superman relationship and the Mayson/Clark relationship.  One could
argue that Lois pursued Superman in the same way Mayson pursued Clark.
Supposedly, CK/Sman did not want Lois thinking of him romantically as Sman,
but he did very little to discourage her -- for the most part.  In fact,
unlike the Mayson/Clark relationship, Superman does seek Lois out (even in
non-emergencies<g>).  And, he romances her as Superman.  He does give her
encouragement.  So, you can understand Lois' persistence.  When she finally
does ask him if there's hope for them in BatP, he says not, and she
immediately turns to Luthor (and then when *that* doesn't work out she
turns to Clark. Jeez!<g>)  Unfortunately, we never had the opportunity of
finding out how Mayson would have reacted if Clark had finally told her he
wasn't interested.

In any case, the difference between them appeared to be that Mayson
couldn't take no for an answer and Lois could (or at least, Lois was
willing to put aside the pursuit of "unrequited" love in an attempt at real
love, which presumably is healthier and more indicative of self-worth).

4) >Clark doesn't know Kryptonese, although it *does* bear a remarkable
resemblance to English. <

>>>Again, I don't think this is really relevant. If anything, Clark is
showing his larger world view here; he's Kryptonian (i.e., from another
planet), so his inarticulateness is wider-ranging than just Earth, even if
he can't speak anything other than Earth languages. It's more a matter of
emphasis than anything else -- and, once again, it reminds Lois just who
and what she's dealing with.<<<

Touche.  I admit to making an unfair criticism.

I'll complete this in a second e-mail
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:28:37 -0400
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 2
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5) >"....for she knew that *she* was the important stakes in his great
gamble. He could lose his privacy, his identity, his friends and family,
but that would only be secondary to his losing her; *that* would be his
true loss, to which all else would only be added sorrow -- painful, but as
nothing to the real wound.<<

>> Lois, my dear! You flatter yourself. Surely the loss of Clark's family
would be no less painful than losing you! Different, yes. But, secondary?
<<

>>>Yes, secondary. This may be a male thing, but I know just how Clark is
feeling (well, I should, shouldn't I? <g>). Lois, with perhaps a little
author-given insight, has deduced this correctly. _She_ is the most
important thing in the universe to him. His parents are very dear to him,
but he's moved on from them. That's what men _do_ -- as in the old saying:
"A son's a son till he takes a wife..." It doesn't mean that he isn't close
to his parents, that he doesn't love them as much as he ever did, that he
won't help them and ask them for help, but he's a man now, and he wants his
_own_ family -- specifically, his own mate, which means Lois.<<<

Oh no!  If it's a male thing, then how can I possibly understand it<g>?...
Seriously though, a person's feelings are very individualized, and one
cannot make general statements about how all men feel.  Nor can I argue
with you about the legitimacy of your own feelings.  With regard to Clark,
however, I believe we can conclude that his relationship with his parents
is almost unique.  He is very close to them if only by virtue of the fact
that, throughout his life, there have been no other people with whom he
felt he could risk confiding.  Undoubtedly, there are perfectly ordinary
men who are very close to their parents, but Clark's superness intensified
that familial bond, creating quite a special relationship that almost
compares to no other.

Regardless of that, as evidenced by the Alt-Clark episode, he does manage
to go on without his parents.  He is less happy, less emotionally healthy,
but he goes on.  Furthermore, the same episode gave us an indication that
he could even (gulp) go on without Lois -- both his Alt-Lois and the Lois
he actually gets a chance to meet and fall in love with.  As in the case of
his parents, without Lois, Clark is less happy and seems to be in a
permanent state of incompleteness.  However, he goes on.   Most normal
people return to their lives when they lose loved ones, but, when it comes
to Superman, arguably, it is more vital that he do so.  As long as he has
the capability to help others, I can't see Clark cashing in his chips and
allowing the "world to fall apart".  Persevering against the odds is what
makes a hero.  Sometimes he puts the needs of others above his own.

As for the adage you quote, "A son is a son till he takes a wife", you
haven't finished it....  "But, a daughter's a daughter all of her life."
Can one, then, argue that women value their parents over their husbands?
(Actually, sometimes I think this saying has been conveniently used by
brothers to argue that sisters should be the one to build the
"mother-in-law suites" onto their homes, much to the dismay of
brothers-in-law.  And, frankly, in many cases, daughters are usually the
caregivers to elderly parents....  Oops, unforgiveable gender stereotype
here.<g>)

>>....Now, you can make of that what you will, but the point is that to
many men, their mates _are_ the most important person in the world to them.
A man can lose his parents, siblings and even children, but as long as he
has his mate, he can carry on; lose _her, and the world has been shattered.
This is by no means universal, but it's true, and I felt that Clark would
(or could) be one of those men.<<

Yes ... to get back to your point, think about this....  in many societies
-- primitive, ancient, as well as the modern world's own recent past -- it
is the woman who leaves *her* family to journey to that of the man's.  He
doesn't leave his village, his people, his *parents* for *her*.  I suppose
this says more about the imagined worth to society of males over females
than it says about who has the greater emotional ties to one's parents.  I
will grant you, though, there are some men who appear to be devastated to
the point of hopelessness at the death (or other departure) of their wives.
Perhaps men need women more than women need men.  I am also amazed at how
often men, subconsciously, seem to "look for" their mothers in their future
mate.  I am not necessarily saying that they, literally, look for a
physical resemblance -- although that happens too<g>.  But, they appear to
look for an idealized "madonna/whore" mix that might, indeed, be a merging
of both their little boy need to be nurtured and their adult male need to
be ... <ahem>.

Okay.  That'll be 5 cents, Charlie Brown.

6) >Before Lois could respond to this unusual statement from someone who
normally worked on the Eleanor Roosevelt principle ("If you can't say
anything nice about anyone... come sit by me.")<

>> Oops. St. Eleanor would have never said this or even thought it.... <<

>>>Really? According to one source, she had it embroidered on a sofa
cushion in her drawing room. And "Saint" Eleanor? Hmmm... not from the
history (which, I freely admit, is pretty scanty) that I read.<<<

This was definitely Alice.

As for my St. Eleanor reference, once again, it was tongue-in-cheek.
Although you may not be exposed to this in the U.K., in the U.S. there has
been a great deal of recent discussion about Eleanor Roosevelt's qualities
-- many of it verging on the saintly<g>.  I think I've only heard one
historian, Doris Kearnes Goodwin, recently fault Eleanor, and that was for
turning away from her husband when he most needed her (not that *he* hadn't
turned away from her).  In any case, Eleanor was too kind-hearted, or,
Alice would say, too dull-witted, to have popularized the quote you have in
your story.  I must admit, however.  Although I knew Eleanor hadn't said
it, I wasn't sure who had, and I had to ask around.

The bottomline is, putting quotes in a story is a dangerous thing.  There
is always the chance that some insufferable boob (like myself) will waste
no time pointing out where you are wrong.

>>Which was the whole idea. Thanks muchly, Sandra, for your interesting
comments,<<

Thanks muchly for taking them in the spirit with which they were meant.

>>Phil, looking forward to doing some more writing over the summer<<

Looking forward to doing the reading.
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:36:27 -0400
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From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 1
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Oh, darn!  This is what I get for sending something out without re-reading
it.....

>>>Depends on what you consider to be confidence, and how that confidence
is expressed. It seems to me that Mayson's forthright approach to Clark
indicates that she had enough self-confidence to make a grab for what she
wanted.<<<

>>I would with you if our only exposure to Mayson had been CoM.<<

Of course, I meant to say, "I would *agree* with you....

The word "agree" doesn't seem to be a great part of my vocabulary, on all
kinds of levels<g>

Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:26:53 -0800
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Parts 1 thru 3
In-Reply-To:  <61445258.35845240@aol.com>
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Zoomwrote after Phil:
>
><< The run-on stuff is usually deliberate, either because I feel that the
>character is
> babbling (internally or externally) or because I tend to write as if
someone
>is
> reading the text aloud. _More_ semi-colons, etc?! It sometimes worries me
>that
> I use too many of them as it is. >>
>
>I have to admit when I read Montrose's Toast, it was the emotional impact
and
>not the mechanics of writing I remember, and so how ever you wrote the
story,
>it worked for me.  I don't often notice a writer's mechanics unless it's
truly
>bizarre or has a ton of typos or misspellings, etc.  Fanfic, like the
series
>itself, was/is about emotional moments to me, and not about the mechanics
of
>television production.  Besides, I think I'm the run-on sentence champ as
it
>is<g>
>
Being a run-on sentence person myself ... imho, a good story becomes a
*better* story when the mechanics are all running smoothly. In reading
fanfic, I don't mind be "jolted" out of the story once or twice ... but
more than that and the story's history! Phil will be pleased to hear that I
made it through Montrose's Toast *in spite of* his run-on sentences ... I
think he did a much better job mechanics-wise here than in umm ... what's
the name of that Soulmates one of yours, Phil? I *barely* made it through
that one, and in fact, started skimming.

>
>Sandy wrote:
>
>>>Boy, I never saw Clark quite like this, and I hesitate to say it's out of
>character<g>. To hold Lois up, like a trophy? Hmm. <<<
>
>Phil replied:
>
><<_Not_ a trophy<<
>
>I agree, I didn't see Clark holding Lois aloft as a trophy, nor did I see
it
>out of character.  I think Clark could have easily done that scene in
WHALTTA.
>I saw the scene as a proclamation, or declaration of all Lois meant to him;
>showing the cosmos that "this woman" was "the one" who meant *everything*
to
>him.  It's a wonderful scene, and I'd have loved to have seen it on the
>series.
>
I hate to say it -- but this is where I almost put "Montrose's Toast" down.
To me, it read "Lois as a trophy" or a prize or what have you. Clark has
never seemed to me to be that type -- and Lois is certainly not the type to
*allow* it. (Although with super-strength, I guess she didn't have much of
a choice). This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple. And
while the two plainly adore each other -- they're also very clearly *Equal*
partners. And also, very aware of each other's faults. People who put other
people on pedestals tend to be blind to that other person's faults.

>Phil said, in response to Sandy mentioning a scene where Clark moves so
fast
>that he's literally 'beside himself':
>
>>>Spot the comics reader <g>. <<<
>
>Yeah, I told Georgia I knew that was written by a comic book reader ;) I
like
>putting in some comic book characters that I think might make a transition
to
>L&C's universe, if only in fanfic.  Anyway, I liked the scene and think
Clark
>could have accomplished it on the series, now whether the SFX department
>could, is another matter ;)
>
*grin* If he could shake his molecules, I figured he could appear next to
himself :) says I, the non-comics reader.

>>>>Again, I don't think this is really relevant. If anything, Clark is
showing
>his larger
>world view here; he's Kryptonian (i.e., from another planet), so his
>inarticulateness is wider-ranging than just Earth, even if he can't speak
>anything
>other than Earth languages. It's more a matter of emphasis than anything
else
>--
>and, once again, it reminds Lois just who and what she's dealing with.<<<<
>
>Again, I agree, it wasn't about Krytonian language anymore than it was
about
>English or Spanish, it was about Clark not finding the words in *any*
language
>to express to Lois how much she meant to him.
>
Agree here too.... 'scuse me for the "me too"!

>>>>Really? According to one source, she had it embroidered on a sofa
cushion
>in
>her drawing room. And "Saint" Eleanor?<<<
>
>The best Eleanor Roosevelt quote is "No one can make you feel inferior
without
>your consent." ;)  The other quote is by Alice, but I had to look it up to
>make sure, so don't worry, if Americans have to run to a quotations book to
>make sure, the sentiment of the statement is much more important than who
said
>it anyway ;)
>
Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
or their editor.

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:40:49 -0600
Reply-To:     Erin Klingler <erink@ida.net>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
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From:         Erin Klingler <erink@IDA.NET>
Subject:      Need fanfic questions answered
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Help!  I'm in the middle of a fanfic, and need help with a couple of
details.

*First of all, what was the name of the street where the theater was that CK
did the piece on the razing of during the Pilot?  32nd??

*Secondly...what was the name of the Smallville newspaper that CK was
supposedly quitting his job at the Planet for to go and work at in Man of
Steel Bars?  The Smallville Post??

If anyone could answer these for me, I would be forever in your debt. <g>

Thanks!
Erin :)
___________________
(aka ELK on IRC)
erink@ida.net
"The truth is, no one knows how long they've got.  Anyway, it's not the
years that count, it's the moments...right now...as they happen."  CK to LL
in BY
                       *******
"You bet your sweet little chumpy I am."
_________________
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Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:59:41 EDT
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
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In a message dated 98-06-16 13:30:11 EDT, you write:

<< Seriously though, a person's feelings are very individualized, and one
 cannot make general statements about how all men feel. >>

But there is clinical data if one wants to delve in that direction, that
supports the notion that the death of a spouse is much more emotionally,
even
physically, devastating to men than women.  There is something called the
'Broken Heart' syndrome.  The two years after the loss of a wife,
particularly
one a man has been married to for several years, can be the two years when
his
life is in the most jeopardy.  Younger men are certainly in less jeopardy
physically (at least in terms of heart attack or other 'natural' causes)
than
older men in this situation, but the suicide rate is signicantly higher than
for other men in their age group.  Physicians and pyschiatrists have both
noted a 'failure to thrive' among these men who have lost their wives.  A
kind
of unwillingness to continue on without the other.

Even leaving the clinical and anecdotal behind, the way the show depicted
Clark Kent, is what I really go by.  I have no doubt that Clark would
continue
to 'exist' if he lost Lois, just as the alternate Clark 'existed', but
that's
quite a different thing from 'living'.   One thing that marks the difference
between 'existing' and 'living' is 'joy'.  Was there any joy in alternate
Clark's life?  If there was, he hid it quite well ;)   Once he met Lois, he
knew instantly what he'd been missing in  his life, and that he would do
whatever he could to redress that void.  The show repeatedly made this
clear.
I have no doubt Clark would go on being Superman if he lost Lois, it would
be
all of Lois he had left to him, but you know, I don't think he'd continue on
being Clark Kent. "There's nothing' there for me, Perry."

>>>this move of Clark's seemed a bit neanderthal to me.  I'm surprised Lois
said nothing in the midst of it, like "Uh, Clark.... Um, what are you
doing, Clark?  Uh ... Remember you love me.  Don't do anything silly, like
toss me into the sun or into orbit or into a trash dumpster...."  <BG><<<

I'd agree throwing Lois in the dumpster was neanderthal.  It equated her
with
garbage, she was trash to be thrown out.  It seemed to reflect St. John's
rather unflattering assessment of Lois in her scripts, but the scene in
Phil's
story was quite different, and the time line was quite different, and
definitely his reason for lifting Lois aloft was quite different<g>  I
remember the scene from Close Encounters where Roy Neery, haunted by the
close
encounter, runs into his yard at night screaming into the sky, "What is
it?!!"
It's an obsession not of his own doing, and so screaming at the cosmic
'powers
that be' seemed the only thing to do.  Clark seems to be, from the pilot
onward, in a similar situation.  In Phil's story, Clark's had it to "here"
(wherever 'here' is) with the deception, the obsession, the unrequited
nature
of the whole thing, but Lois bidding for *Clark* at the auction, and not
Superman, marked some type of turning point for Clark in this story.  It was
time to put all the cards on the table.  He didn't just fly Lois to that
deserted beach and suddenly raise her over his head, he spoke to her at
length
about his feelings before that maneuver.

There's an old movie (yes, I'm in movie reference mode ;) titled The
Enchanted
Cottage.  In this cottage a homely woman and a disfigured man see each other
as whole, and attractive.  It seems a metaphor for the filter love can pull
over our eyes, and admittedly it is a rather treacly movie in spots, but it
was called the 'enchanted' cottage, and not the 'haunted' cottage, because
there is a big difference between the two words.  Somewhere along the line,
Clark stopped being huanted by Lois, and became enahanted by her, and he
wanted to tell "the whole damned universe" ;)

Leanne wrote:

>>>Phil will be pleased to hear that I
made it through Montrose's Toast *in spite of* his run-on sentences ...<<<

I thought the sentence structure complemented the story, giving the feeling
of
thoughts overlaid by the characters.  To each his/her own I suppose ;)

>>>I hate to say it -- but this is where I almost put "Montrose's Toast"
down.
To me, it read "Lois as a trophy" or a prize or what have you. Clark has
never seemed to me to be that type <<<<

You mean when he was forceably flying Lois somewhere and she was fighting
him,
it was okay, but when Lois seemed to enjoy being held aloft, it wasn't?<g>
Sorry, I don't get that.  I saw no objection about the 'kidnapping' but you
objected to this scene where Lois is not yelling or demanding to be put
down.
The only thing I had against either scene is that Clark told Lois to "..stop
thrashing about" because it sounded way too British for Clark to say<g>

>>>This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple.<<<

Might be a cultural difference here, but I see 'putting someone on a
pedestal'
as what Lois did with Superman 1rst season, even if she couldn't lift him
over
her head<g>

>>>Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
or their editor.<<<

I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit is
due, and make certain the attibution is correct.  It may be a minor
transgression in fanfic and certainly one that can be fixed even at the
archive, but is a much greater problem when say something is overlooked when
a
script is written, fimed and aired and no one caught a glaring omission.
That
happened with All Shook Up.  Bryce Zabel failed to give credit of the basic
story idea (Superman fighting an asteroid and getting amnesia) to Jackson
Gillis who wrote the script Panic in the Sky for the original Adventures of
Superman.  When ASU aired the first time, there was no title credit for
Gillis, but there sure was when ASU ran the second time<g>  Wonder if that
oversight cost Warner Bros any moola? ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:39:25 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Hand of Fate (Was: Montrose's Toast
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Leanne Shawler wrote:

> > I
> >think he did a much better job mechanics-wise here than in umm ... what's
> >the name of that Soulmates one of yours, Phil? I *barely* made it through
> >that one, and in fact, started skimming.
>

I just have to jump in here.  This is definitely a case where different fans
have
different tastes.  I not only loved Phil's 'Soutmates one' -- it's called
"Hand of
Fate: Soul Mates 2" and it's in the Archive -- but I embarrassed myself (and
Phil)
by gushing all over it when I first read it. <g>   It may be one the best
fanfics
I've read, in fact, which is not a compliment I give lightly.

I wish I could say I've read the story recently enough to give a detailed
review.
Unfortunately, it's been awhile and I don't have time to go back and reread
right
now.  So, in lieu of details about just what I loved about it, I'll make
this
short -- I highly recommend this fanfic.  It's long, but romantic and
interesting.  It provided, for me, a very fun, exciting and satisfying
ending to
Sir Charles and Lady Loisette's tragic fate.

If anyone else has read the story more recently than I, I'd love to hear
other
comments on it.  Am I in the minority here? :)

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:14:51 -0800
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From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fanfic Review: Montrose's Toast - Reply, Part 2
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>
>>>>This is indeed putting Lois on a pedestal, pure and simple.<<<
>
Zoomway responded:

>Might be a cultural difference here, but I see 'putting someone on a
pedestal'
>as what Lois did with Superman 1rst season, even if she couldn't lift him
over
>her head<g>
>
Ah, yes. But wasn't she *wrong* about that? She put Supes on a pedestal and
couldn't see the real guy, Clark, causing hurt, angst and, well, dithering
:) It was her seeing Clark as *Clark*, non-pedestal style that advanced the
relationship. If that had never happened, Lois would've been relegated to
Superman groupie. It was a *crush*, this pedestal putting, and she got over
it -- or rather, she got to know the man behind the Suit before she even
knew he was uh, ... behind the suit.

All of the talk in Phil's fanfic was fine ... it was just this moment that
was out of place for me.

>>>>Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
>said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
>You'd be surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A
>quotation is exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author
>or their editor.<<<
>
>I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit is
>due, and make certain the attibution is correct.  It may be a minor
>transgression in fanfic and certainly one that can be fixed even at the
>archive, but is a much greater problem when say something is overlooked
when a
>script is written, fimed and aired and no one caught a glaring omission.
That
>happened with All Shook Up.  Bryce Zabel failed to give credit of the basic
>story idea (Superman fighting an asteroid and getting amnesia) to Jackson
>Gillis who wrote the script Panic in the Sky for the original Adventures of
>Superman.  When ASU aired the first time, there was no title credit for
>Gillis, but there sure was when ASU ran the second time<g>  Wonder if that
>oversight cost Warner Bros any moola? ;)
>
Is that a long way for saying you agree with me? Fanfic, script, novel,
thesis. It's all important. Although, I may say "borrowing" a story idea or
rewriting it without giving credit is plagiarism, not mis-crediting a
source.

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:20:54 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Need fanfic questions answered
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Erin Klingler wrote:

> Help!  I'm in the middle of a fanfic, and need help with a couple of
> details.

Ooo, you're writing? Goody! :)

>
>
> *First of all, what was the name of the street where the theater was
that CK
> did the piece on the razing of during the Pilot?  32nd??

I'm almost positive it was 42nd, but I can't remember if any
cross-street was
mentioned.

> *Secondly...what was the name of the Smallville newspaper that CK was
> supposedly quitting his job at the Planet for to go and work at in Man
of
> Steel Bars?  The Smallville Post??

This sounds like a Zoom question. <g>

I believe, based on my iffy memory, that you are correct in that it was
the
Smallville Post.  Though in the Pilot, doesn't he say he worked for the
Smallville *Press*?  I seem to remember noticing this inconsistency at
the time
of first airing (with only a half season of eps, it was a lot easier to
remember from week to week. <g>).

Any one else have a better memory?

Kathy (curious now, too!)

--
______________________
Kathy Brown
kbrown@webmart.net   <-------------  Please note new address!!  :)

KathyB on IRC
______________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:40:54 +0000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Phillip Atcliffe <P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)

Leanne and Zoom wrote:

>>> Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
You'd be
surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A quotation
is
exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author or their
editor.
<<<

> I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit
is due,
and make certain the attibution is correct. <

I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
that quote
was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
the lady
-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
wrote
was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.

If I got it wrong, then mea culpa, but it was an honest mistake. As for
checking
it -- well, there's a practical problem there, particularly on this side of
the
Atlantic. Just where do you go to check something like that? I suppose I
could
try Brewer's or the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations -- I may do, now that
the
question's been raised -- but when you _have_ a source that gives the
"wrong"
answer..?

I also hesitate to put that sort of thing onto editors -- voluntary, unpaid
and in it
primarily for the enjoyment that they get out of it -- who have quite enough
to do
as it is, and may not have the appropriate resources available anyway. _I_
do,
but I have a university library "to hand". In this case, the story was seen
by
half-a-dozen or so people before it made it to the archive, and all I ever
got from
them on that point was a ROFL! -- which is all it deserves, IMO. I'm all for
accuracy, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Phil, unoffended by the discussion and hoping that no-one will be offended
by
his input
------------------------------------------------------------
"Sic Transit Gloria Barramundi"
   (Or, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!)
   -- not Douglas Adams, but me: Phil Atcliffe
                              (p-atclif@uwe.ac.uk)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:21:58 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)
In-Reply-To:  <s5878f53.042@wpg.uwe.ac.uk>
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>Leanne and Zoom wrote:
>
>>>> Actually, it does matter. We now have a bunch of folcs thinking Eleanor
>said that. I certainly didn't know any better until Sandra mentioned it.
>You'd be
>surprised at what people "learn" through their fiction reading. A quotation
is
>exactly the kind of thing that should be checked by an author or their
editor.
><<<
>
>> I agree that a writer should always endeavor to give credit where credit
>>is due,
>and make certain the attibution is correct. <
>
>I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
>thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
>that quote
>was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
>the lady
>-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
>wrote
>was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
>that is
>irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the
>text and it
>won't make an iota of difference to the story.

Sure, it won't make a difference to your story. You could put "Marsha
Bigwiggins" there instead if you liked. It's a minor point that has
probably been discussed ad nauseum here, but still a valid one. I'd be
interested in seeing what the Quotations book, etc turns up!

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:34:40 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Sandra McDermin <SMcDermi@NAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Roosevelt Quotes (was: Montrose's Toast)
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>>I'd like to point out in passing that _I_ was one of the "bunch of FoLCs"
who
thought (still do, until I can find a reference that says otherwise) that
that quote
was attributable to Eleanor R. (Now _there's_ an unintentional tribute to
the lady
-- not a saint, but a queen? <g>) I had good reason to believe that what I
wrote
was the case, or I'd never have written it -- after all, exactly who said
that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.<<

*******
The proper citing of a quote is not irrelevant.

1)  The following websites (a small sample of those I found) list the quote
>from your story and everyone attributes it to Alice Roosevelt Longworth:

http://www.phnet.fi/public/mamaa1/quotesnf.htm
http://omni.cc.purdue.edu/~raaron/quotea-m.htm
http://www.bemorecreative.com/one/818.htm

2)  The following website is that of an Associate Professor of History at
Monmouth College in Illinois, Dr. Stacy A. Cordery.  One of her research
interests is Alice and a project she is working on is, strangely enough,
entitled, "'Come and Sit By Me':  The Life and Times of Alice Roosevelt
Longworth".

http://www.monm.edu/academic/History/SACordery/sacorderyhome.htm

3)  The funniest website I found to illustrate my point is a website on
"Common Writing Errors"!  Amidst its instructions on commas, it uses the
quote in question and attributes it to Alice:

Use a comma between dependent and main clauses only when the dependent
clause precedes the main clause:  If you can't say anything good about
someone, sit right here by me. (Alice Roosevelt Longworth)

4) If you want to read more about Alice *and* Eleanor, I found the
following book:

"Alice and Eleanor, A Contrast in Style and Purpose" by Sandra R. Curtis

Alice Roosevelt Longworth was acknowledged as the outrageous media star in
the White House during her father's Presidency. When a friend asked whether
Teddy could restrain his daughter, President Roosevelt answered that he
could run the country or Alice, but be couldn't do both.

By contrast, Teddy's niece Eleanor, who was Alice's polar opposite in
personality, also captured the hearts of the country when she entered the
White House 24 years later as First Lady. Shy and deferential, Eleanor came
to politics through her commitment to social justice while flamboyant,
defiant Alice had been weaned on politics. Political and personal rivals,
Alice and Eleanor were intimately connected to the U.S. Presidency through
45 dramatic years. Each learned to wield power effectively through her
unique style and for her distinct purpose.

[the rest SNIPPED]

**************

>>I also hesitate to put that sort of thing onto editors -- voluntary,
unpaid and in it primarily for the enjoyment that they get out of it -- who
have quite enough to do as it is, and may not have the appropriate
resources available anyway. _I_ do, but I have a university library "to
hand". In this case, the story was seen by half-a-dozen or so people before
it made it to the archive, and all I ever got from them on that point was a
ROFL! -- which is all it deserves, IMO. I'm all for accuracy, but isn't
this putting the cart before the horse?<<

No, it's good writing.  Quotes, whether meant for fun or placed in a news
article, should be properly attributed.  If you have a university library
on hand, you should be able to find something on the Roosevelts in it.

I don't expect my stories to be perfect, no matter how many unpaid proofers
have seen it.  And frankly, I agonize over every mistake I make and do my
best to have them corrected.  I hate to admit this for fear of offending my
former proofers, but I've never  *really* relied on them to catch my
errors, although it's very helpful when they do.  When it comes to quotes,
a writer must be particularly careful.  In the real world, *the writer* is
the one who will be sued for misattribution.

>>Phil, unoffended by the discussion and hoping that no-one will be
offended by his input<<

I'm not offended either, just mildly exasperated.  I will, however, make
one correction on a mistake *I* made and that is that Eleanor and Alice
were first cousins, not cousins by marriage.

Well, I'll say no more on this -- publicly, privately, or otherwise.
Sandy
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:47:06 +0000
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Phillip Atcliffe <P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK>
Subject:      COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.

Leanne wrote:

> I'd be interested in seeing what the Quotations book, etc turns up!

Would you believe... Sierra Foxtrot Alpha? ("short" for Sweet Fanny Adams,
a.k.a. zip, zilch, nada, not a sausage, abso-fraggin'-lutely nothing!) I'm
not all
that surprised, actually -- the Roosevelt clan, other than the Big Two (see
later),
is a fairly obscure topic outside the US.

Anyway, the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations made no mention of Eleanor,
confining itself to quotes from Teddy R and FDR; the Oxford Dictionary of
_Modern_ Quotations did manage to include the "inferior" quote, but that was
the only one, all else on matters Roosevelt being similar to its sister
dictionary;
a book of 20th Century Quotations, by FS Pepper, only had stuff from FDR;
and
Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable had nothing at all! So much for
references...

I note that this has since been overtaken by Sandra's research -- hey-ho...
Any chance of correcting the text, Kathy?

Earlier, Leanne and Zoom were discussing whether or not Clark was putting
Lois
on a pedestal in making his declaration. I don't think he was -- it was
certainly
not my intention (and anyone quoting what that student said to Isaac Asimov
--
"What makes you think you know what you wrote?" -- will be treated with the
contempt they deserve <g>) -- and I don't think it follows from the story.
Clark is
not blind to Lois' faults -- if he were, they wouldn't _be_ in the situation
that
they're in. Clark would not be so concerned with Lois' possible reaction to
finding out his secret that he's worked himself into such a state that he
_has_ to
let these deeply-hidden feelings out. This is his declaration -- exactly to
whom
he's making it, not even he really knows, but it's to Lois as much as to the
rest
of creation (which puts them, to him, on something like an equal valuation
--
which is about right at that moment <g>). But whomever he's making it to,
he's
_got_ to make it; the emotion, once released by the earlier discussion, has
got
to come out.

This in no way expresses a low opinion of Lois' worth. Clark wants her as
his
partner -- his _equal_ partner -- both professionally and personally, and
that can
only come about through her consent. But, Clark being the honest guy that he
is, she's got to know what she's consenting to, and this turns out, rather
to
everyone's surprise, to be the way he tells her that.

I think Zoom got it right when she said that this is like the scene that she
describes from Close Encounters (a scene which I had completely forgotten,
not
having seen the film for over a decade). Cards on the table, not just to
show
Lois, but to tell the universe (again, more than just "the world", 'cause
Clark is
living proof that there's more to creation than that) and, above all, to end
the
uncertainty. Like the toast of the title, he "...puts it to the test, to win
or lose it
all!" And if his language is a little flowery, then that's how it has to be,
because
sometimes there's no other way to say something; this I know from my own
experience -- sometimes, you look back in embarrassment at something you've
said and wonder how you could ever come out with that stuff, but on
reflection,
there wasn't any other way to say it, and it needed to be said.

As to why Lois allows herself to be hoisted above Clark's head without
protest --
well, a lot of it is curiosity. Again, this doesn't just happen, it develops
from
earlier interaction between the two of them. Lois is over her anger -- or,
maybe,
it's been put aside for a while; either way, she's not mad, but she is
curious.
And, being Lois, she's intensely curious; Clark is showing her a whole side
of
him that she's never seen before, and she wants to know. That's a basic part
of
her personality, and it's in control here. She's not saying much, having
shut up
because she was tending to babble, but she's watching and listening to him
closely, and thinking hard. She's becoming more comfortable with the idea of
Clark's 2 identities, and thus with him. So, when he hoists her into the
air, she's
surprised, but not frightened, and because she's concentrating on him, she
makes no protest yet -- and by the time she might decide to say something,
she finds that she's quite comfortable, and too busy listening to his
declaration.
And his pas de deux turns out to be rather fun, so why spoil it?

Someone contrasted this scene with Clark throwing Lois into a dumpster in
IGACOY. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that his doing that was
_not_ neanderthal, and especially not "[equating] her with garbage [...]
trash to
be thrown out." This is _Clark_ we're talking about, and he would never
think
that about Lois, even at her worst -- which this is a fair example of. As I
remember the episode, Lois' cover was blown and "Charlie" had been told to
throw her out. Lois, of course, was more interested in telling off Clark for
wrecking _her_ chance at getting _her_ story than she was in having the
Planet
get the story at all, a classic case of the early Lois' selfishness. She
didn't want
Clark there at all, and she didn't care that he could pick up where she left
off,
nor that her losing her cover was her own fault; no, if Lois couldn't do it
all by
herself, she didn't want _anyone_ to get the story, and especially not her
"partner". Never mind that he'd insist that they share the by-line (which
she
probably didn't believe).

So, after being on the receiving end of a lengthy harangue, Clark, fed up
with her
selfishness, maintains his cover and drops her in the dumpster -- and not
before
time; he's got more patience than I would have had. I might add, in his
defence,
that the rubbish in the dumpster, as mucky as it might have been, made for a
softer landing than, say, throwing her into the alley. Given a choice
between
rotten vegetables and asphalt, I'll go for the veggies every time.

And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
(which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
situation?

Phil, amazed at what his story has stirred up...
--
No .sig (buffer limit), but my address is p-atclif@uwe.ac.uk
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:02:14 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Hall, Melissa" <MHall05@SPRINTSPECTRUM.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.
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>And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
>(which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
>situation?

We-ell... I'm no man, but since I'm stuck...er...living in Kansas now, I
can say with some sort of authority that he'd probably say "Stop
squirming." or "Quit it." or maybe "Cut it out." One doesn't thrash in
Kansas. (Now threshing, on the other hand...)
>
>Phil, amazed at what his story has stirred up...

Misha, who's having too much fun reading all the reaction.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:23:41 EDT
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
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In a message dated 98-06-17 12:48:51 EDT, P-ATCLIFFE@WPG.UWE.AC.UK writes:

<< And finally, a question to Zoom: if "quit thrashing about" sounds too
British
 (which I'm _not_, BTW), what would a man from Kansas say in the same
 situation? >>

I don't think you have to *be* British necessarily to *sound* British, at
least phraseology that sounds singularly British (did that make sense? ;)
I've had to edit stories for both Aussie and UK fans and so I've seen
similarities that I simply call "British".  Just the word "about" in certain
instances sounds British to me<g> "What was he on about?"  "Why is Cedric
mucking about?"  "Quit thrashing about" ;)  Seriously, the combination
sounded
like one Clark wouldn't use. It stuck out for me as the phrase "fixin' to"
would stick out, even though that's a very American specific phrase, but
from
the Southern United States generally.  However, I don't recall Perry ever
using it, and so I guess I wouldn't write him using "fixin' to" as in "Lois,
I'm fixin' to leave for lunch."  Nope, I just can't see it<g>  Maybe Perry
used it and I missed it, but I don't recall it being a common phrase for
him.
As for 'thrashing about' I might see Clark saying "Lois, you'll hurt
yourself
if don't settle down." or "Quit struggling or you'll hurt yourself."

There was an Aussie fan who wrote Jimmy as saying "No worries, CK."   I
asked
her if Jimmy just watch Crocodile Dundee or something.  If so, have Clark or
Jimmy mention that's why he used that phrase, if not, have Jimmy say "No
sweat" or "no problem."   She had Lois say "My mother's in hospital."    I
said put THE in front of hospital.  The funniest part (admittedly, for an
American) was when she wrote "Clark put on his jumper and hurried from his
apartment."   I wrote back "His *jumper*????"  In the US, a 'jumper' as it
refers to clothing, is generally a sleeveless dress, or a skirt with a bib
front over a blouse.  Now as much as I'd have loved to see Clark in Lois's
black chiffon, I don't think she meant to give the American readership the
impression that Clark, like his father allegedly, became a cross-dresser<g>

When something sounds distinctly British within the non-dialog part, it
doesn't matter as much to me as I'm editing as long as I can understand
what's
being said.  I would not expect Perry to say "Superman's been gone a
fortnight." (or any of the other characters for that matter)   if fortnight
were used in dialog, I'd suggest they'd change it to "two weeks" but it's
not
as crucial that they do if it's not in dialog. However, some expressions
that
the 'Brits' might think would be very well understood everywhere English
(not
that American's speak English, as Henry Higgins pointed out ;) is spoken,
would be surprised to find that sometimes that's just not true. Lois
wouldn't
say "I'll ring you up"  To Americans it would sound like Lois was trying to
total someone up on a cash register<g>  Lois would say "I'll give you a
call."
or even "I'll phone you later."   I'm not saying this is a better way to
speak, I'm just saying since the characters are Americans, this is how they
*would* speak.  I won't even go near what Americans would think if Clark
told
Lois "I'll knock you up."!!!!

If I were writing fanfic that involved a British or Australian show, I'd
pick
an editor from that country, and if that editor said my use of a certain
expression was too American, and I should use 'this' or 'that' instead, I'd
change it, believe me.  I think fanfic writers like all writers want to be
understood, but they also want to capture the flavor, or 'flavour' of how
the
characters speak in their particular corner of the world. If Jimmy said "I
have got in trouble with the police in the past."  that would sound a bit
British. If Jimmy said "I have gotten in trouble with the police in the
past."
that would sound more American.  Even Americans would be surprised how
American the word "gotten" tends to be.  The reason I put the phrase 'spot
on'
in quotes in another post, is that it's not really an expression I use.  I'd
have said "you were dead on the money" or "you hit the nail on the head" or
had gotten it "right on the nose"<g>  Ask an American what the next line to
"For he's a jolly good fellow" is, and he'll likely say "Which nobody can
deny."  It's funny anyway, since I don't know many Americans who say "jolly
good" ;)  You might start a race with "Ready. Steady. Go!"  We might start a
race with "On your mark. Get set. Go!"  We mean the same thing, we just say
it
differentlly.

Having said all of this, there will now likely be Americans, Aussies and
Brits
correcting expressions I got wrong or disagreeing with me entirely<g>
That's
a listserv for you ;)  But I can promise you, I never heard the word
"snogging" until someone from Australia said of a comic book cover "It's the
one with Lois and Clark snogging." <g>  For what it's worth though, I wrote
this in hopes that it would be helpful.

Zoomway@aol.com (I still remember the phrase "He was severely concussed."
from
The Avengers, but figured it meant "a bad concussion" however, when Steed
said
"He used a 12 bore.."  I had no idea he meant a 12 guage shotgun, I thought
it
might refer to a weird British golf club ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:38:20 -0400
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
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              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Gary <gar8434@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
In-Reply-To:  <84c8bf9f.358817be@aol.com>
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At 03:23 PM 6/17/98 -0400, Zoomway@aol.com wrote:
>
>Having said all of this, there will now likely be Americans, Aussies and
Brits
>correcting expressions I got wrong or disagreeing with me entirely<g>
That's
>a listserv for you ;)  But I can promise you, I never heard the word
>"snogging" until someone from Australia said of a comic book cover "It's
the
>one with Lois and Clark snogging." <g>  For what it's worth though, I wrote
>this in hopes that it would be helpful.
>
>
If you need to make corrections, just ask for a 'rubber'. ;-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Gary A. Rudick mailto:gar8434@rit.edu <http://www.rit.edu/~gar8434> |
| "What's done to children, they will do to society." - Karl Menninger|
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:15:06 -0500
Reply-To:     kbrown@webmart.net
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Kathy Brown <kbrown@TOOLCITY.NET>
Subject:      Changes to Archived stories (was Roosevelt)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Phillip Atcliffe wrote:

> I note that this has since been overtaken by Sandra's research --
hey-ho...
> Any chance of correcting the text, Kathy?

Yes, just please write me a separate message to <kbrown@webmart.net> and
tell me what you
want it to say.  I will then assign someone on the webstaff to correct it.

By the way, this goes for anyone who has a correction to make in an Archvied
story, be it
correction of typos, a change in email address or name, etc.   If the story
is short, or
if there are several changes, send me an updated copy of the story with a
request to
replace the old version with the new one.  If the story is very long and
there is just one
change (like in Phil's), send me a message with the text of the correction.

Kathy

P.S. Phil, I've written you two messages on that other writing project we
were discussing
.. can you please get back with me on your status?  I haven't heard from you
in a few
weeks and need to talk with you. :)

_________________________________
Kathy Brown
Editor-In-Chief
Lois & Clark Fanfic Archive
<http://www.ixpres.com/chrispat/lcfanfic>
kbrown@webmart.net
KathyB on IRC
_________________________________
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:45:42 +0300
Reply-To:     osangie@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         "Angela H. Garmaise" <osangie@SPINACH.MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject:      About expressions, etc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
ones.
Totally non-connected:  I've just checked the archive, and didn't find
the story of Phil's someone mentioned:  Hand of Fate: Soulmates 2.  I
looked under both "Hand" and "Soulmates"; no luck.  So: could someone
kindly post it to the list?  Much appreciated.
Going back to majorly lurk...
Angie G.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:54:55 -0500
Reply-To:     eed2@Ra.MsState.Edu
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Elizabeth Eve Davis <eed2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Organization: Mississippi State University
Subject:      Re: About expressions, etc.
Comments: To: osangie@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

His story is the Fanfic Archive, not the Archive of the ListServe. I had
trouble with that myself.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:20:20 -0800
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Leanne Shawler <volterra@SD.ZNET.COM>
Subject:      Getting OT: Re: About expressions, etc.
In-Reply-To:  <35882AF6.2959@spinach.mscc.huji.ac.il>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
>that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
>to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
>likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
>show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
>would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
>ones.

Well, actually our "Lois & Clark" as canon is set somewhere on the East
Coast of the US. Not Canada. No matter *where* Superman's authors are from
(or where he was situated in the original comic), that's where he is in L&C.

It's pretty important to get the dialogue right, American-wise, for
"authentic"-sounding fanfic. Far more so than, say the words in the prose
around it -- eg, the spelling, use of the word "fortnight" and other such
localisms.

Zoom added and asked to be corrected:

>> Lois wouldn't
say "I'll ring you up"  To Americans it would sound like Lois was trying to
total someone up on a cash register<g>  Lois would say "I'll give you a
call."
or even "I'll phone you later."   I'm not saying this is a better way to
speak, I'm just saying since the characters are Americans, this is how they
*would* speak.  I won't even go near what Americans would think if Clark
told
Lois "I'll knock you up."!!!!<<

Um, as far as I know -- "I'll knock you up" is an NZ-ism, used purely for
giving someone a wake-up call. It provokes the same amount of hilarity in
Australia, and indeed in the UK, as it would with Americans.

Make an interesting nfic though .... :) did I say that???

Leanne

Leanne Shawler aka Volterra on IRC (volterra@sd.znet.com)
Web Design: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/design/webdesign.html
Home Page: http://www.znet.com/~volterra/leanne.html
Midnight Dreaming: The Original Anthony Warlow Home Page:
http://www.zweb.com/volterra/anthony.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:44:35 EST
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         goldengrove unleaving <kubitc@KENYON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: About expressions, etc.

<< Someone (I'm sorry, I don't remember who; Zoomway, I think) mentioned
that the characters are American.  Not to be overly picky, but I'd like
to point out that they were the creation of a Canadian team, which
likely would have made their dialogue Canadian to some extent, until the
show was taken over by Americans!  And in connection, their expressions
would have likely been somewhere in between British ones and American
ones. >>

I know we've kind of had this discussion before and I'm not trying to be
overly
picky either, but the characters weren't really created by a Canadian
"team."
Shuster, the Canadian, in fact drew the pictures for the comic, and Siegel
did
the writing. Since Siegel was an American, probably the dialog is American
as
well. Not to mention that the characters were created while the two were
high
schoolers in Cleveland and Siegel was only 9 when he moved to Cleveland, not
giving him *too* much time in Canada to pick up the differences in speech.

-Christy
 kubitc@kenyon.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:26:57 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt Quotes (love the rhyme ;)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-06-17 00:30:02 EDT, volterra@SD.ZNET.COM writes:

<< Ah, yes. But wasn't she *wrong* about that? She put Supes on a pedestal
and
 couldn't see the real guy, Clark, causing hurt, angst and, well, dithering
 :) >>

No, it wasn't wrong for Lois to put Superman on a pedestal, in fact, she
kept
him on a pedestal even after she knew the truth<g>

I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
instead of Clark?  She didn't know they were the same guy, that was the idea
Clark had in mind, wasn't it? Create a persona to fool the public?  Superman
told her she'd always be special to him, didn't have to bid for his
attention,
*he's* the one who said "Lois Lane, I love you" in the pheromone episode
while
Clark said "I guess I'm just not attracted to you, Lois."  Gee, now let me
think, which of the two would *I* find more appealing?<g>   I don't mind
that
Clark wanted Lois to love him as Clark and not Superman. I don't mind that
Clark is also the one that made Superman so attractive to Lois.  It was cute
sometimes that Clark couldn't help himself around Lois and press that
advantage *but* I did mind when Lois was held to blame for falling in love
with an appealing image that Clark himself created and even romanced her
with
when it suited him.  Since the purpose of creating Superman was to make
people
believe Superman and Clark were two separate men, it often seemed as if Lois
was being punished for believing *exactly* what Clark wanted her to believe,
or at the very least it seemed she was being punished for loving the 'wrong
one' of him ;)

>>>s that a long way for saying you agree with me? Fanfic, script, novel,
thesis. It's all important. Although, I may say "borrowing" a story idea or
rewriting it without giving credit is plagiarism, not mis-crediting a
source.<<<<

That's a yes and no. Read my response to Phil below (I'm still rhyming ;)
In
fanfic we're using characters that aren't ours and never will be and we're
making them say and do things we choose, and all utterly without permission,
and often without attribution when we use quotes from various writers from
the
series<g>

Phil said:

>>>after all, exactly who said that is
irrelevant to my story; pedants can change "Eleanor" to "Alice" in the text
and it
won't make an iota of difference to the story.<<<<

I agree with this simply because in *this* case, the hilarious truth here is
that the real attribution goes to an embroidered pillow that was in a
sitting
room<g>  Did Alice *or* Eleanor come up with the wording on the embroidered
pillow? *That* information at least isn't in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations
(the source I used for the quote ;) So I don't think any FoLC were
permanently
traumatized even if it was misattributed<g>

There's also the fact that sometimes a 'saying' can morph over time, or
change
to have a more easily understood meaning, or sometimes a variation on a
quote
appears that does not take away the meaning of the original.  For example,
>from Mathew 19:24  "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."   However in
Counter Clark-wise, I had Clark say this: "Well, you know how the old verse
goes, Lois.  It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle
than
it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."  I wasn't deliberately misquoting
(even
*I* wouldn't have the gall to rewrite the bible ;), but *that* is how it was
written out on a calendar my Aunt had in her kitchen, and so I merely copied
it from that.  I mean if you can't trust a calendar put out by a funeral
home,
what's this world coming to?<g>

Ariadne suggested the calendar quote might be from the 'Living Bible' which
does some paraphrasing of biblical verse, but a funeral home and a 'living
bible' sounded ironic ;) I figured the funeral home used that verse to
encourage anyone pre-planning a funeral to use as much "riches" for their
funeral so as to make them 'lighter' for their ascent to Heaven.  Like
dropping sandbags from a hot air balloon ;)

Zoomway@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:41:22 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject:      The big question [was Re: Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt
Quotes]
In-Reply-To:  <5d3374c3.3588c142@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:26 AM 6/18/98 EDT, The Zoomway wrote:
>I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to love
Superman
>instead of Clark?

Ooooo, I just gotta delurk and jump in here on this one. This is one of the
major things I've never understood about the way the Superman story has
developed over time, or maybe I understand the origins of the belief but
don't agree with it in practice, and one of the reasons why L&C so
fascinated and still fascinates me as a series is that it dared to
challenge the status quo over this very issue of their overall relationship
representing a total package of 'being' Superman together and the greater
analogy of male and female actually being able to  function as partners
instead of as adolescent adversaries. Sometimes I adored the way the series
did it and sometimes I didn't think they went far enough in debunking the
way things have always been, but I can't quibble with the lasting
impression L&C has made in the way their relationship will be viewed in the
future.

But the curious thing that still amazes me is that even among devoted FoLC
there are people who see her love of Superman as something that has to be
done away with, changed, overcome . . . something. I'm really not sure how
to describe it because I honestly don't understand the concept. Why is it
so difficult for everyone [universal everyone, here] to believe Lois could
honestly and truly love Superman and see that love as part of the overall
package of who they are and have to be IF their love has even a chance of
lasting? The way I see it, if she doesn't love Superman, well and truly
love who he is and what he is, Utopia [meaning their future and the future
of their 'world' as defined in the series] doesn't have a snow-ball's
chance in you-know-where of ever coming about, which is partially where I
think I'm going in the NEBS storyline. Eventually. At the very least, I did
deal with exactly this issue in NEBS: PROMISES - Lois knowing she loves
both. I didn't want her, or Clark, thinking that she'd somehow fallen out
of love with Superman and I also wanted Clark to understand that loving
Superman is still loving him.

Now, please understand something here, this is not a disagreement with the
notion that she has to see Clark as Clark and love him just for being
Clark. I can understand that . . . to a point. From Clark's point of view,
it is an important consideration to know whether the super hero is ALL she
loves. The problem I have with trying to wrap my brain around the concept
of her no longer loving Superman as intensely as she loves Clark is that
why doesn't anyone ever ask the reverse - namely, is the farm boy all she
then loves?

See, that's where my brain shorts out every time. Nobody has any doubts
that she falls hard for Superman right from the start. Even KNOWING he's an
alien. But for some reason in the Superman canon, it seems to be a hard and
fast rule that her love for Superman has to therefore be false. Or maybe a
fantasy of her own mind would be a better word there. Something like puppy
love or a crush. Huh? This man is real to her. Period. She, more than
anyone else, has proven time and time again, in all incarnations, that she
believes in him, who he is and what he's doing. They have a personal
relationship, one-on-one, that is caring, respectful, trusting,
understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . what is not to love?

Except, there is also this other man named Clark Kent that she has almost
the exact same one-on-one relationship with - caring, respectful, trusting,
understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . again, what is not to love? What if
she had fallen in love with Clark and not Superman? Yes, I know she
wouldn't be the Lois Lane we all know and love, but that's sort of my
point. I think. Wouldn't Clark then be looking at her with the exact
bewilderment he gave to Mayson? Clark babbling to his parents about
Mayson's reaction to both Clark and Superman was probably one of the best
scenes in the entire series for me because it expressed in a nutshell WHY
it has to be Lois Lane for him [paraphrasing here because I can't remember
the exact quote] "She likes Clark, but hates Superman." And it baffled him,
down to his toes. Dense though he is at times over the issue of whether or
not Superman is even a part of who he is, even he was perturbed over the
concept that someone could hate Superman and like, really, r*e*a*l*l*y
like, Clark. On a very fundamental level, it doesn't make sense. They are
the same person. As much as Clark Kent IS Superman, the reverse is even
more true - all that Superman is comes from who Clark is.

When Lois fell in love with Superman, she fell in love with Clark, she just
didn't know it. Where I've always felt the series fell way short was in the
way they dealt, not with the revelation itself, but with the aftermath.
Talk about short, sweet and then we move on. What happened to having to
come to grips with a completely new set of parameters to the relationship?
The issue for me at that point isn't about Lois being angry over being
deceived and I certainly didn't want to see her stay mad at him for half a
season or more. She is Lois Lane and she understands this man called
Superman. Subconsciously, at least, she would know exactly why he did it.
So, it's not a matter of suddenly hating him for doing it. It's a matter of
having to totally rethink WHO she loves and how to deal with that new
reality. Suddenly Clark has powers and Superman has . . . hat hair. Major
shift in focus there, but it isn't about loving him, all of him, it's about
whether or not she can live with who he now is to her and in her life.
Loving Superman is one thing but living with him, literally and
figuratively, is something else altogether. That was another point I wanted
to deal with in PROMISES and Ellen Lane became the voice for the concept of
all things. Oh, the possibilities the series missed there.

>Since the purpose of creating Superman was to make people
>believe Superman and Clark were two separate men, it often seemed as if
Lois
>was being punished for believing *exactly* what Clark wanted her to
believe,
>or at the very least it seemed she was being punished for loving the 'wrong
>one' of him ;)

Exactly, if anyone should be punished, shouldn't it be him? [That should
stir up a hornet's nest . . . but, really, what did she actually do to be
punished for?] And if Superman is the wrong one to love, how can she
therefore continue to love him AFTER she knows the truth? Just because
Superman is suddenly now Clark doesn't change the fact that he is still
Superman - you know, the one that was previously unattainable and far above
us, who shouldn't be brought down to our level. Oh, and let's not forget
that Superman is also the workaholic just like her father, too.

Oh, well, thank you very much for distracting me from getting any work
done. OTOH, I think this discussion may have jump-started my brain over a
problem I've been having with the next installment of NEBS, so much so that
I keep avoiding even thinking about it. I have most of TIMELESS written,
which is the twenty-four hour period right after the revelation, but for
some reason it hasn't felt right. This discussion has made me realize that
it's a POV problem. I'm still looking at things mostly from Lois' POV, her
reactions to suddenly knowing, etc., instead of shifting over to Clark's
concern over her ultimate decision about how things are going to turn out.
I want to make Clark more understanding of her dilemma in coming to grips
with the truth at the same time that he's attempting to control the outcome
in his favor but I keep being reluctant to actually get into his head to
deal with his internal conflict over this major change in his life. Oye.

And I still say that Clark is the most difficult to understand and write
about internally. By a long shot.
Beverly :-)

*******************************
Beverly Latham
blatham@hop-uky.campus.mci.net
*******************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:21:30 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Resurrection
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Just a quickie with apologies for not including this in my previous post,
but why in last evening's ep, Resurrection, did Lois not yell for Superman
when she thought she was going to be buried alive?

I agree there is an inconsistency during Mayson's death.  Production wise,
perhaps they could not figure out a way to have Clark run toward Mayson and
have his shirt rip on cue.  Then they cut, and voila, ripped shirt.  Okay,
so his aura doesn't extend to his outer clothes as witnessed many times. He
was then very careful as he got up from Mayson's lifeless body, not to let
Lois see the rip, since she's behind him and he is forwarned.  This starts
a series of characters finding out his secret and then dying, Resplendant
Man's sister, one of the exceptions.

The series is plagued with many inconsistencies.  Just look at how many
actors played Lois' family?  Lois sending Clark off to New Krypton still a
vrigin?!?  Now, I love Virtually Destroyed but who's idea was it to have
Clark be a virgin in the first place, Dean, or the producers (Debby, does
this question sound familiar?).

I always seem to have so much to say when I think it will only be two
sentences.

Carolyn
cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:21:09 +0100
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      problems with the list
MIME-Version: 1.0

Hi everyone,

Um .. I have a small problem and that is signing on to the list again ..
you see my address has changed a lot of times and hopefully this is the
last time it will change .. I have tried writing to Farah Chisham to try
and clear up this problem but to no avail and I see no other way to get
through this problem but to write to you fellow Lois and Clark fans ....
please somebody .. HELP!!!!! I have been a list subscriber for months
and am having withdrawl symptoms .. :-(

Also I have another problem which is not list related. You see I have
every single video of Lois and Clark .. some bought and some recorded
off the television when the tv programme graced our screens here in the
UK ... avid fan? Yes, I am!!!! :-) But recently some of my videos went
missing and I was wondering if someone could help me out by helping me
have a complete collection again .... the ones that I am missing are
some from Season Two and some from Season Four:

Season Two:

Chi of Steel
Top Copy
The Return of the Prankster
Target: Jimmy Olsen

Season Four:

Faster than a speeding Vixen
Shadow of a Doubt
Voice from the Past
I've got you under my skin
Toy Story
The Family Hour

I would really appreciate it if someone could get back to me and here is
my email address because it is going to be hard getting to me through
the list as I can't get it at the moment ....

angee.chaudhry@fastc.demon.co.uk

Thanks everyone for your help

sincerely

Angee.

--
Angee Chaudhry
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:47:23 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Several thoughts (more body of work)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this message
exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios say
he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I did
notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show (taller than
Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall enough
for me but I'm petite!)

This is the first I have heard that Dean and Teri may have had an affair
(please remember I am relatively new).  Isn't it just a rumor?

As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as being a
nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I think
was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,
esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.  What he says to
someone he thinks is a friend should have remained private.  He's a healthy
young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without
people trying to sully his reputation.  But in showbiz, there is always
someone out there trying to make a buck at the cost of a reputation.

Can anyone tell me more about the "E" interview from which people got the
impression that Dean and Mindy are already married.   Transcript?

I was also wondering if anyone has on tape Dean's previous work, like any
of the 35 commercials, the 90210 appearances I have been trying to get, or
any of the other bit parts he had?

When I signed on, I thought I would lurk quietly.  Surprise!

Carolyn
cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:00:55 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Farah Chisham <fchisham@INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Sorry to post this to the list Re: problems with the list
In-Reply-To:  <zRbUNFAlBTi1Iwz6@fastc.demon.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hey angie, I got this message when I sent you email:
(If you are getting anything from the list:)

The original message was received at Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:56:10 -0500 (EST)
>from fchisham@copper.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.1.4]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to punt-1.mail.demon.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
<<< 550 (BHST) Unknown host/domain name in
"angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK"
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  [ Part 3: "Included Message" ]

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:56:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Farah Chisham <fchisham@indiana.edu>
To: Angee Chaudhry <angee.chaudhry@WOOLACOMBE3.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: problems with the list

Hi.  Sorry I have been *really* busy.  I can't work on it
until I get home tonight (I am at work) and I have a rehearsal
at 10 pm.  I will do what I can.  Just hang on until then :)

Farah Meitzen Chisham
fchisham@indiana.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:01:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Crystal Wimmer <JCWimmer@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: The big question (warning... long post)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 6/18/98 7:54:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, blatham@HOP-
UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET writes:

> Now, please understand something here, this is not a disagreement with the
> notion that she has to see Clark as Clark and love him just for being
> Clark. I can understand that . . . to a point. From Clark's point of view,
> it is an important consideration to know whether the super hero is ALL she
> loves. The problem I have with trying to wrap my brain around the concept
> of her no longer loving Superman as intensely as she loves Clark is that
> why doesn't anyone ever ask the reverse - namely, is the farm boy all she
> then loves?

The way I see it, she never really fell *out* of love with Superman, but
rather relegated that love to a more realistic location in her heart.  She
realizes that expecting him to love her, when he is committed to the
protection of the entire world, is selfish... she gives him up.  In my
opinion, this is perhaps the greatest form of love.  She never stops loving
him... but rather she allows him to be free of the constraints of that love
while she decides to live her own life.

As for her love of Clark... I think the biggest stumbling block in that
relationship was the friendship.  Wait a minute... don't yell at me yet...
let
me explain.  Clark had insinuated himself into her life, made himself
invaluable emotionally even as Superman had done the same thing physically.
In attempting to move forward with the relationship, she stood the chance of
losing the friendship.  Keep in mind, this is a woman who had only
experienced
"federal disasters" in previous relationships... she had no way of knowing
that this would work.  I think she was just too afraid to see beyond the
friendship, because risking it was not an acceptable option.

> See, that's where my brain shorts out every time. Nobody has any doubts
>  that she falls hard for Superman right from the start. Even KNOWING he's
an
>  alien. But for some reason in the Superman canon, it seems to be a hard
and
>  fast rule that her love for Superman has to therefore be false. Or maybe
a
>  fantasy of her own mind would be a better word there. Something like
puppy
>  love or a crush. Huh? This man is real to her. Period. She, more than
>  anyone else, has proven time and time again, in all incarnations, that
she
>  believes in him, who he is and what he's doing. They have a personal
>  relationship, one-on-one, that is caring, respectful, trusting,
>  understanding, helpful, LOVING . . . what is not to love?

As the series progressed... and the friendship progressed... she developed
more confidence in the strength of the friendship.  Keep in mind, she was
always afraid of losing Clark (remember her face when he left her in Man of
Steel Bars... there wasn't any surprise, just pain... think about it).  No
one
had stayed with her... not friends, not family... no one.  She held to her
friendship with Clark with all that was in her.  She had no choice.  I
honestly believe that if she had not met Clark when she did that the Lois
Lane
we love would not have existed... she would have been completely absorbed by
her job... and most likely killed by it.  Anyway... she always held that
fear
of losing him in the back of her mind... we saw it in That Old Gang of Mine,
Green Green Glow of Home, Metallo, The Phoenix (she actually says it here...
expresses her fear that moving forward with the relationship will end the
friendship, or make the partnership uncomfortable), and we really see it in
Church of Metropolis when she expresses her fears to Perry.

Okay... in closing, I suppose my point is that it wasn't a matter of Lois
"settling" for Clark, but rather her finally developing enough confidence in
the friendship to risk it on something more.  I feel this was almost
independant of her Superman "infatuation"... that those feelings were real,
but surrounded in the awe of a superhero... if she lost him to a bad
relationship it would not have woulded her as deeply as losing Clark, so she
wasn't as cautious.

Thanks for reading my ramblings :)
Crystal
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:52:37 -0700
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Linda Mason <deanishot@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The big question [was Re: Montrose's Toast and Roosevelt
              Quotes]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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---Beverly Latham <blatham@HOP-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET> wrote:
>
> At 03:26 AM 6/18/98 EDT, The Zoomway wrote:
> >I'll also ask the *big* question.  Why was it wrong for Lois to
love Superman
> >instead of Clark?
>
> Ooooo, I just gotta delurk and jump in here on this one. This is one
of the
> major things I've never understood about the way the Superman story
has
> developed over time, or maybe I understand the origins of the belief
but
> don't agree with it in practice,

Well, as my male friends keep telling me,
women claim that they want a Clark Kent
(mild mannered, etc.) but when given the
choice, women chose Superman over Clark.

It's not wrong for Lois to love Superman,
just inconsistent with what the woman who
had so many federal disasters would/should
want. A farmboy from Kansas was a godsend for
her, but she preferred Mr.Muscles and assigned
all sorts of ideals to him, before she knew
anything about him. Lois already knew that
Clark was a "goody-two-shoes". It wasn't until
Metallo that she realized it, and it seemed to
shock her that, except for the super-powers, Superman
was her partner!

Linda
==
Linda Mason
deanishot@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:43:43 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Frances Coogan <FCoogan106@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: COMBO: Roosevelt, pedestals, etc.(thrashing about ;)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I agree entirely that all the dialogue in fanfics should be American.  It's
part of the style of the show, and if the speech is not authentic it ceases
to
be Lois and Clark. It just goes to show the necessity for editors though,
since we don't always realise phrases are not universal.  For example:

In a message dated 17/06/98 19:45:46 GMT, Zoomway wrote:

<<    if fortnight were used in dialog, I'd suggest they'd change it to "two
weeks" >>
I wish I'd known it was a purely British expression before passing through
US
customs last November.  -  I won't be doing that again in a hurry!

<< "I'll ring you up" >>
Not sure if many Brits would say that:  I think "I'll give you a ring" would
be more likely, sounding like a very nice jewellery opportunity<g>!

<< 'spot on' >>
When the outgoing US Ambassador to Britain (I think) was interviewed by Sir
David Frost he said that phrase was one of his favourite (yes, English
spelling<g>) things about England.  Apparently he enjoyed using it on his
compatriots and getting blank looks in return!

<< I still remember the phrase "He was severely concussed." from The
Avengers
>>
That's what we call the Great British understatement, and The Avengers is
full
of them!  A more recent common example is Murray Walker who commentates on
the
Formula One Grand Prix and frequently describes massive crashes resulting in
one or more drivers having to retire as "a coming together".

One more language thing I've wondered about is Lois's pronunciation of
"Monsieur" in "Ghosts":  Is that how Americans are taught to pronounce
French
or did Teri just get it wrong?

As for spelling, I would probably have to keep that English since I'd never
have guessed anyone wouldn't spell "defence" with a "c"!

Frances (still remembering the harsh cross-examination Louise Woodward got
>from using the word "pop" in one of its normal English senses - not unlike
my
"fortnight" experience at San Francisco airport!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:14:18 EDT
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         The Zoomway <Zoomway@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Several thoughts (more body of work)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-18 13:19:03 EDT, you write:

<< I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this message
 exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios say
 he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I did
 notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show (taller than
 Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall enough
 for me but I'm petite!) >>

I'd say Dean is right at 6 feet tall.  Some of us got to meet him, Teri, K
and
Justin. Teri and Dean were standing right next to each other.  Teri was not
wearing heels.  Dean entered the news room of the Daily Planet carrying Teri
in  his arms.  Justin was following right behind them.  Justin was about
half
a head shorter than Dean, so I'd guess he was about 5'9.  When Dean set Teri
down and she was right next to him, her head would have easily slipped under
his chin (remember, she wasn't wearing any heels).  She was about 5'6.  K
Callan was shorter than Teri, so maybe K is about 5'4.   Dean was easily
taller than all of them, and he wasn't wearing heels either<g> They had
finished shooting for the day and waited about two hours for us to show up.
Only Justin seemed to be wearing what he would have worn in character as
"Jimmy" (flannel shirt, jeans, boots, and the belt buckle he was wearing had
two horse heads on it if you ever wondered ;)   I may be off on the heights
a
bit, but they were all standing side by side at one point, and Dean did seem
to be about 6' tall. He's not a man you'd meet and say "wow, he's tall"
(wow,
he's a hunk though came to mind ;) Even on the series he didn't give the
impression of being "tall" per se, just more an average tall (is that
possible? ;) height compared to most men I'd say.

When I spoke to Jim Beaver (he played Henry 'Golden Boy' Barns, the villain
who stole the invisible suit and locked Lois in the vault) he said he was
impressed with Dean's strength.  Jim said that he's 6'1 175 pounds and that
Dean effortlessly lifted him off the ground when the director told Dean to
'hoist' him<g> He also said that Dean broke the prop gun.  Jim said their
were
two different guns used for the scene.  A metal prop gun for 'looks' and a
soft, pliable replica that Dean could bend.  Jim said Dean grabbed the metal
one (forgetting to wait for the cut and substitute), and broke it in half<g>
He said Dean was a very nice guy, laughed a lot and was very accommodating
and
even-tempered.  Didn't take things terribly seriously.

>>>As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as being a
nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I think
was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,
esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.<<<

I've never heard anyone who's met or worked with Dean say a negative thing
about him.  He was definitely liked at Warner Bros. from everyone in a
"suit"
to the security guards.  He hijacked a tour tram once dressed as Superman,
always was nice about posing for photos or signing autographs. Teri had a
'less nice' reputation, but I think that's because, believe it or not, she
was
kind of shy.  It gave her a reputation for being 'aloof'.  She wasn't a
'people person' like Dean, and was surprisingly insecure at times.  After
all
of us met the cast on the DP set, Paul Hulse (the sound engineer) told me
that
Dean and Teri had come up to him afterward and Teri asked "Do you think they
liked us?"  I was 'stunned, shocked, in need of oxygen' <g>

>>He's a healthy
young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without
people trying to sully his reputation.<<<

I agree, and I know of at least one occasion where a visit to a 'strip club'
was where the bachelor party of one of his former Princeton team mates was
being held.  If Teri had gone to a male strip joint, I'd have simply said
"you
go, girl!"<g>

Zoomway@aol.com (wishing L&C had to go undercover at a male strip club and
Clark could have dressed as Zorro maybe ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:01:10 -0500
Reply-To:     "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Sender:       "Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Fanfic"
              <LOISCLA-GENERAL-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
From:         Carolyn Schnall <cschnall@MAIL.MED.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Several thoughts (more body of work)
In-Reply-To:  <1eb8cd2b.358958fc@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Zoom:  I am sooooooo glad you responded with all that wonderful
anecdotal information.  Is there more where that came from (for the new
fan list maybe)?  Also, I love the Zorro stories too, and agree with
your postscript.   Wish I had met him like you and Debby:)    I don't
believe he ever comes to New York City:(

I missed nearly all the hype so I would appreciate any info, no matter
how old, small, or seemingly insignificant, from anyone who has time or
is so inclined.  Already a couple of people have given me information
that is <bold>new to me</bold>.  As I have said to some of you before,
I came real late to the party, to find that most of the goodies are
gone.

Thank you,

Carolyn

cschnall@mail.med.cornell.edu

>In a message dated 98-06-18 13:19:03 EDT, you write:

>

><<<< I thought I saw that someone had mentioned (can't attribute this
message

> exactly) that Dean didn't turn out to be all that tall.  All his bios
say

> he's 6 ft. tall (190 or 195 lbs.)  and he dated tall woman too.  I
did

> notice that there seemed to be alot of tall actors on the show
(taller than

> Dean).  Can anyone clarify this for me?  (I might add that he's tall
enough

> for me but I'm petite!) >>

>

>I'd say Dean is right at 6 feet tall.  Some of us got to meet him,
Teri, K and

>Justin. Teri and Dean were standing right next to each other.  Teri
was not

>wearing heels.  Dean entered the news room of the Daily Planet
carrying Teri

>in  his arms.  Justin was following right behind them.  Justin was
about half

>a head shorter than Dean, so I'd guess he was about 5'9.  When Dean
set Teri

>down and she was right next to him, her head would have easily slipped
under

>his chin (remember, she wasn't wearing any heels).  She was about 5'6.
 K

>Callan was shorter than Teri, so maybe K is about 5'4.   Dean was
easily

>taller than all of them, and he wasn't wearing heels either<<g> They
had

>finished shooting for the day and waited about two hours for us to
show up.

>Only Justin seemed to be wearing what he would have worn in character
as

>"Jimmy" (flannel shirt, jeans, boots, and the belt buckle he was
wearing had

>two horse heads on it if you ever wondered ;)   I may be off on the
heights a

>bit, but they were all standing side by side at one point, and Dean
did seem

>to be about 6' tall. He's not a man you'd meet and say "wow, he's
tall" (wow,

>he's a hunk though came to mind ;) Even on the series he didn't give
the

>impression of being "tall" per se, just more an average tall (is that

>possible? ;) height compared to most men I'd say.

>

>When I spoke to Jim Beaver (he played Henry 'Golden Boy' Barns, the
villain

>who stole the invisible suit and locked Lois in the vault) he said he
was

>impressed with Dean's strength.  Jim said that he's 6'1 175 pounds and
that

>Dean effortlessly lifted him off the ground when the director told
Dean to

>'hoist' him<<g> He also said that Dean broke the prop gun.  Jim said
their were

>two different guns used for the scene.  A metal prop gun for 'looks'
and a

>soft, pliable replica that Dean could bend.  Jim said Dean grabbed the
metal

>one (forgetting to wait for the cut and substitute), and broke it in
half<<g>

>He said Dean was a very nice guy, laughed a lot and was very
accommodating and

>even-tempered.  Didn't take things terribly seriously.

>

>>>>As far as I know, Dean has always had a good reputation, seen as
being a

>nice guy, etc.  He stated once that he had never posed nude, which I
think

>was very smart.  He seems to have had good guidance from his family,

>esepecially from his dad, about how to conduct himself.<<<<<<

>

>I've never heard anyone who's met or worked with Dean say a negative
thing

>about him.  He was definitely liked at Warner Bros. from everyone in a
"suit"

>to the security guards.  He hijacked a tour tram once dressed as
Superman,

>always was nice about posing for photos or signing autographs. Teri
had a

>'less nice' reputation, but I think that's because, believe it or not,
she was

>kind of shy.  It gave her a reputation for being 'aloof'.  She wasn't
a

>'people person' like Dean, and was surprisingly insecure at times.
After all

>of us met the cast on the DP set, Paul Hulse (the sound engineer) told
me that

>Dean and Teri had come up to him afterward and Teri asked "Do you
think they

>liked us?"  I was 'stunned, shocked, in need of oxygen' <<g>

>

>>>He's a healthy

>young man and in my opinion, has a right to visit a nightclub without

>people trying to sully his reputation.<<<<<<

>

>I agree, and I know of at least one occasion where a visit to a 'strip
club'

>was where the bachelor party of one of his former Princeton team mates
was

>being held.  If Teri had gone to a male strip joint, I'd have simply
said "you

>go, girl!"<<g>

>

>Zoomway@aol.com (wishing L&C had to go undercover at a male strip club
and

>Clark could have dressed as Zorro maybe ;)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:48:30 -0500
Reply